The role of the Chief Marketing Officer (CMO) has never been more complex—or more misunderstood. Expectations for growth are sky-high, yet CMOs often face short tenures, limited trust, and constant pressure to prove marketing’s value.
In a recent episode of Performance Delivered: Insider Secrets for Digital Marketing Success, host Steffen Horst sat down with Karl Van den Bergh, CMO at Illumio, to explore what it takes to thrive in this high-stakes role. With over 25 years of experience leading teams in marketing, product, and general management across the U.S., Europe, and Asia, Karl brings a global perspective on how CMOs can succeed in today’s fast-changing landscape.
Why the CMO Role Is So Uniquely Difficult
Karl describes the CMO position as having the “highest complexity-to-appreciation ratio” of any executive role. Unlike sales or product, where outputs are easier to measure, marketing touches every part of the buyer’s journey—from press coverage and peer reviews to events and conversations.
This complexity makes it harder for boards and executives to understand marketing’s impact. As Karl puts it:
“Marketing is always a bit of a dark art. Everyone wonders, what are you spending money on? How do we quantify the return?”
The result? Short CMO tenures (often just 12–18 months) and a credibility gap that leaders must bridge quickly.
Building Trust at the Executive Table
So how do CMOs build trust in an environment where results take time? For Karl, the key is transparency, milestones, and data.
- Start with alignment: He uses a “Plan on a Page” framework that connects company objectives → marketing strategy → key initiatives → investment → measurable outcomes.
- Show quick wins: From small targeted campaigns to new events, demonstrating early traction helps establish credibility.
- Be transparent: Share both successes and failures, and explain adjustments clearly.
- Build relationships: Partnering closely with the CRO, CEO, CFO, and product leader is critical to long-term success.
“Trust doesn’t happen overnight. But if you follow through on what you say, and are authentic about what’s working and what’s not, people will trust you.”
Leading with Authenticity
In today’s noisy, hype-driven market, authenticity is more valuable than polish. Karl believes brands should stay true to their voice—even if it means some people won’t like it.
He shared a bold campaign example from a previous role: “Caught with Your Pants Down”—a cheeky cybersecurity ad that showed office workers in suits… but only boxers below the waist. The playful message resonated deeply, outperforming benchmarks 4–5x, even though some regions found it too risky.
The lesson? Realness cuts through the noise.
“If you try to adjust to every audience, you’ll water down who you are. I’d rather some people love it and others hate it, than everyone say, ‘It’s nice.’”
How AI Is Reshaping Marketing
Karl sees AI as both an opportunity and a challenge—especially in change management. At Illumio, every marketer now has an AI-related quarterly objective, whether it’s testing a tool, improving efficiency, or driving conversion. The team also introduced AI Innovator Awards and AI Fridays to encourage experimentation.
Key areas of focus include:
- Efficiency: Automating repetitive processes so marketers can focus on creativity and strategy.
- Conversion: Moving toward true one-to-one personalization at scale.
- Buyer’s journey: Preparing for a world where AI agents (like GPTs) outnumber human website visitors.
For Karl, marketers must now think beyond keywords and start answering questions buyers ask AI directly.
“We’re already seeing prospects discover vendors through ChatGPT. If you want to show up, you need to think about how your brand is represented in peer reviews, publications, and AI-driven search results.”
Final Takeaways
The modern CMO faces intense pressure, but success lies in:
- Strategic alignment with company goals
- Quick wins balanced with long-term milestones
- Authenticity in leadership and messaging
- Embracing AI to drive both efficiency and customer connection
Karl’s journey highlights that while the CMO role may be misunderstood, it’s also one of the most critical for shaping a company’s future.
Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Intro Music: This is Performance Delivered Insider Secrets for Digital Marketing Success with Steffen Horst,
[00:00:11] Steffen Horst: welcome back to Performance Delivered Insider Secrets to Marketing Success, the podcast where we dive into what's driving results in today's ever evolving marketing landscape. I'm your host, Steffen Horst, and today we're digging into one of the most complex and high stakes roles in the business world.
[00:00:27] The CMO. The topic we're going to talk about is the modern COO challenge. Why is harder than ever and how the best are navigating the challenges they face? If you ever set in the boardroom or joined a high growth company, you know the pressure on the CMO is immense. Growth expectations are sky high, yet the role is often misunderstood and undervalued.
[00:00:49] So what does it take to succeed in this role today? And how do you earn trust while delivering results? To help us explore this topic, I'm joined by Karl Van den Bergh , [00:01:00] the CO at Illumio, leader in ransomware and breach containment. Karl is an accomplished senior executive with a 25 year track record of building high performing marketing teams or teams, products and businesses.
[00:01:14] He brings a global perspective to all his endeavors with leadership roles in both early stage startups and 1 billion tech companies across us, Europe, and Asia. Karl held leadership roles in marketing product, and as a GM in cloud analytics and cybersecurity businesses. Together we'll unpack what's changed in the CMO seat, what it takes to build influence across the executive table, and how to lead when the playbook is constantly evolving.
[00:01:43] Now, Karl, before we get too deep into today's topic, let's start easy. How did you get started in your career and what led you
[00:01:51] Karl Van den Bergh : to Illumio? Hey Steffen, thanks for the invitation. Great to be here and the opportunity to share some thoughts. [00:02:00] So on the journey, it's a good question. I go back a little bit. I grew up in Ireland.
[00:02:05] You wouldn't get it for my name, but I'm actually Irish Flemish dad, hence the weird Irish last name. I did three different degrees diplomas, one in physics and Trinity. One in computer science as a master's in Imperial College, and I did humanities in Florence, Italy. So diverse background, educational background.
[00:02:26] My career kind of followed suit in that I did a lot of different things before I ended up as a CMO. So I actually, I started my career as a developer in a software startup in Paris, and from there did product management. I went into. M and a. I did m and a for a while. As you mentioned, I was a GM for a couple of businesses, sort of early stage companies as well as billion dollar plus publicly traded companies.
[00:02:57] And then my last few roles of being the [00:03:00] CMRO and I started Illumio six months ago or so, and I'm here because this company is on a mission. I think it's a really important mission given today's cybersecurity landscape in that. The world is obviously more and more digital. That's where most of our life is.
[00:03:20] Most of our, most of the value of what we see around us is stored digitally, and yet that world is very much under attack. We are seeing the cost of cybercrime go up year over year, and yet we continue to spend tons of money to solve the problem, but the problem is getting worse, so something's broken.
[00:03:40] And we at Illumio believe we, you know, have an opportunity to help fix that problem. That is when a breach occurs, we help contain the problem. We help to contain the breach and stop the disaster. We can talk more about that means later on. But that's in a nutshell, my background and how I ended up at Illumio.
[00:03:58] Steffen Horst: Wonderful. Well [00:04:00] thanks for sharing this. Now, the CM role role is the highest complexity to appreciation ratio. What makes it so uniquely difficult?
[00:04:09] Karl Van den Bergh : I talk a lot about this sort of either for wannabe marketeers who are considering being a CMO. I also, you know, do this part of my educational process to boards and to c c-level executives of my peers.
[00:04:25] 'cause I think that marketing is still pretty misunderstood, underappreciated, especially in B2B, I think in B2C, we as consumers, we know the impact and the effect of marketing. B2B, it is a more complex endeavor because as you know, for most B2B purchases, it's not one person buying. There's a 15 to 20 people and then they are influenced, right?
[00:04:56] And they buy through, you know, many different ways. [00:05:00] Right? And they're influenced by what they read in the press or the blogs or videos they see, or events they go to, or conversations they have with their peers or. It's multifaceted. And so when you look at the marketing function, which is really in control of that buyer's journey and needs to manage that buyer's journey, it's a very, very complex function.
[00:05:23] It has to be a good marketing leader or good marketer. You have to have both left brain and right brain capabilities. I think you need to be very operational. You need to understand technology. You need to good at numbers and analysis, but you also have to be creative. You have to be, you know, understand the human psyche you need to understand and how to apply strategy.
[00:05:47] So there's both a very operational side and a very strategic side to marketing, and yet it kind of falls in between the cracks. Oftentimes between product and sales, everyone understands what product does they [00:06:00] build stuff. They sell stuff, and I'm oversimplifying obviously those two functions, but people understand the value they bring.
[00:06:06] Marketing is always a bit of dark art, like how does that work? What are you spending your money on? How do we quantify the return? This is why I say it's got the highest complexity to appreciation in the sense of understanding and recogni. Which is why the tenure of CMOs is so low. 12 to 18 months is currently what the CMO tenure is in Bobby.
[00:06:28] That needs to get better because that doesn't do anyone any good. No, no. Sounds like there's a
[00:06:33] Steffen Horst: big credibility and trust issue. Trust in a way that, you know what, if you get into a business as a new CMO. It takes time to make changes, right? It takes time to adjust a strategy that has had been implemented before, that the company might have followed for 10, 20 years or whatever.
[00:06:51] That was the strategy, right? And to change something, to move it in a new direction. You are not going to see within six or 12 months the changes [00:07:00] alone. Building rent awareness can take one and a half, two, three years for it to actually manifest itself. What's your approach to building credibility and trust?
[00:07:09] With the rest of the executive team, especially board and the CRO, because you've gotta influence them in order to stay safe in your seat. It
[00:07:16] Karl Van den Bergh : is one of the biggest challenges I think today in that we're in a fast moving world. We want to see results quickly. Companies run on a quarterly basis, and that's kind of the cadence, right?
[00:07:29] Quarter to show results. That's kind of the landscape. The process that I've gone through that I've found helpful is. To try and bring the executives, the board along a journey. And there's a couple of components to it. One, the kind of the foundation or the language that I use as much as possible is data.
[00:07:50] 'cause everyone appreciates and understands data and you know, they see numbers all the time, whether it be from the CFO or from the sales leader. So everything [00:08:00] that I show is anchored in some shape or form in data. And so what we'll do is, and then at a very high level, and we can get into a little bit more specifics here, but at a very high level, I try to have some quick wins.
[00:08:13] There's some things that I we're gonna do that will show immediate results or very short term results. You are gonna pick what those are and say what would that be? It doesn't have to be like. Hey, I'm gonna double pipeline in a quarter. That's not reasonable. You're not gonna be able to do that. We're going to, we're, it's important for us, for example, to go after this new buyer, let's say to CSO or seed a seed level.
[00:08:35] In our case, we target C-level buyers. We're gonna go after this new buyer, so let's set up a series of events and get these buyers facilitate conversation. And so you could set something up like that, have your first event, and have good feedback from the event. As an example of a quick win, I say, okay, we can see that the ball is rolling the longer term, so you have a few quick wins.
[00:08:58] This should be all in the framework [00:09:00] of what are we trying to go, what's the strategy? So I start with helping people understand and agreeing upon. 'cause it is a conversation. It's not just me. Uh Right. It's obviously with my team's input and then. With the, the REST executive team is based on where the company wants to go.
[00:09:16] What is the marketing strategy to support the company's objectives? So I have a very simple template I use called a plan on a page. It literally represents the whole of marketing's plan for the year on one page. And what it has is essentially five rows and five columns. And the first column is like company's objectives.
[00:09:38] The second is, okay, what's the marketing strategy to support those objectives? Then the third one is what, what are the big things that we're gonna do in marketing and to execute on that strategy? Then what's the investment we're placing, and then what are the measurable outcomes from each of those things?
[00:09:57] So on one page, literally in kind [00:10:00] of this table, at a very high level, which is the right level for the executive team and board, you can communicate what the overall marketing strategy, execution plan, and results will be in support of the company's objectives. So that strategic alignment is the foundational component of everything that we do.
[00:10:21] And then everyone's like, okay, I get the strategy, it seems to be. Aligned to helping us support our company's objectives. And I see how you're gonna measure the outcomes of what you're doing. And then it's about basically, you know, taking a quarterly cadence. I said with some of those quick wins right here, we're doing this and this is, and then bringing people along the journey and there will be bumps, right?
[00:10:45] There were things that will not work as expected, but as long as you are being transparent. Helping them understand, okay, this didn't work, we're gonna try something else. Great. Then I think things go well because you have [00:11:00] given a framework to understand what you're delivering and you're being transparent about how things are going.
[00:11:06] And I assume
[00:11:07] Steffen Horst: part of that framework is probably milestones, right? So that in between, so it's not like we want to achieve Correct. At the end of let's say three years, it's a long period to kind of look at a goal and executives get, get impatient or. They might get worried that you don't get there because there's nothing in between that shows check.
[00:11:26] You're on the right track.
[00:11:27] Karl Van den Bergh : You need milestones, which is why like ideally then I have, I translate that, essentially plan on a page to A-C-M-O-K-P-I dashboard, which gives me on a quarterly basis, and we'll have targets for each quarter for those KPIs, how we're doing against those objectives. Yeah, that makes sense.
[00:11:47] Now
[00:11:47] Steffen Horst: for new CMOs stepping into the environment with low trust or high expectations, where
[00:11:54] Karl Van den Bergh : should they start? I think the, the first thing really is gonna be, you know, talking [00:12:00] and building the relationship with the executive team. And you know, the obvious one is obviously building a strong relationship with your CRO, your head of sales.
[00:12:10] The other is your. Product leader and obviously CEO. Those are probably the three primary relationships that the CFO as well increasing because obviously marketing is a big spender when it comes to discretionary budget, and so having a good relationship with the CFO, so they understand the investment and the return.
[00:12:29] So I think it starts a lot with building those relationships. Then, as I mentioned, that kind of strategy alignment. Along with plan to support it, getting everybody on the same page, and then everyone agreeing that these are the right KPIs and this is how we're gonna track it. So it gives people the confidence that you have a framework, you have a strategy, you have then a plan, right?
[00:12:52] In terms of big things you're gonna go do. And then you have a way of tracking whether it's working or not, and then making sure that [00:13:00] everyone, you're giving the team. Regular updates on progress, good or bad, being transparent, right, and what's working and what's not working, and that builds trust. I think it's the relationship building and it's the.
[00:13:13] Transparency that builds trust. Trust. As you know, in business relationship, it takes time. It doesn't happen overnight, but if you follow through on what you say you're gonna do, if you're transparent and authentic about what's working, what's not working, I think people will generally trust you. Let's talk about
[00:13:30] Steffen Horst: a authenticity in today's noisy, hype optimized marketing environment.
[00:13:36] It's easy for brands to play it safe. To polish every word, smooth, every edge, and aim for mass appeal. But increasingly we're seeing that perfection isn't what builds connections. Authenticity is whether it is a brand taking a bold stand or a CMO showing up with transparency as you just talked about.
[00:13:55] Realness cuts through where? Polish card. So [00:14:00] what does it mean to lead with authenticity, not just in messaging, but in leadership, culture and strategy. And how do you do it without crossing into risk or losing trust?
[00:14:11] Karl Van den Bergh : It's a great topic. Yeah, it is one of my areas of focus, both I think, in how I conduct myself personally, but also in the work environment and in what we do as a company.
[00:14:23] Because as you said, I think we're in a world where there is very much a thirst for truth or for realness. There's so much fake as we know out there, and obviously AI is making that even worse, and so people are looking for something real. So there's a couple of ways that manifest in marketing. One is as you're thinking about your brand and your message to market, it's like how do you communicate in a way that's true to who you are as an organization?
[00:14:57] And I think if you do that, what you'll [00:15:00] find is that some people will like it, some people won't. But you'll stand out and you'll build brand equity. And you know, we did this, just give an example, as a manifests in advertisement. So we did something at my last company and we're kind of going down similar path where we ran a campaign.
[00:15:22] And it was kind of pushing the envelope a little bit. So you talked about the how can you do it without going too far. And so it was pushing the envelope a little bit and it was basically, it was a campaign we wanted to get across. We wanted to communicate to the market in a way that. We get people to think differently about something.
[00:15:43] And so we had to use a little bit of unique approach and the campaign was called Pants Down. So that gives you a flavor of what we were going for. And basically what it was in this video was whole bunch of people walking around the office, you know, from the waist [00:16:00] up. They were all like suit and ties and just regular office.
[00:16:03] Then down below, they were on boxers. And so the message we were trying to get in this was that if you're not staying alert in your environment, this is a cybersecurity company as well. If you're not staying alert, you could get caught with your pants down. And you know, there is obviously more to it than that, but that was kind of the essence.
[00:16:22] And the pants down, as you know, is that idiom in English where basically says you're gonna get caught under words, you're gonna get attacked, et cetera. That was not an easy thing to get across the line because people were like, oh my goodness, are we gonna be offending people? And you know, we did it in a way that was tasteful, but it was a little bit risky.
[00:16:44] But I was always, I'm always at the point that I would much rather people love it or hate it then like say, oh, it's nice, it's nice. Just does not get any recognition. And we were being kind of, as I said, true to ourselves. [00:17:00] The corporate culture was a little bit cheeky. It was a little bit different. And so we wanted to represent that, that campaign way outperformed benchmark like four or five times above benchmark.
[00:17:12] So it totally resonated. I'd say there were people who still didn't like it, so I'm not showing that my region, the region is too conservative. They said, fine, but you know, the Europeans loved it. Some parts Asia loved it, some parts didn't. Some parts of the US loved it, like way outperformed benchmark probably that was a human element to it, right?
[00:17:32] But this is just an example of, again, being authentic. If you try to like adjust to every potential need or like, or you're gonna end up watering down who you are and no one will know who you are and they won't know whether or not you're a good fit. And that goes for us as people, as well as it does as a business.
[00:17:50] And we can talk more about this idea of authenticity because it is such an important. When it comes to human relationships too, and what relationships in [00:18:00] terms of selling and marketing, in my view, are gonna become real relations are gonna become even more important in the world of ai. But let me pause there and see if you've got follow up questions or comments.
[00:18:12] Yeah. So how, how do you personally model authenticity
[00:18:15] Steffen Horst: as a marketing video?
[00:18:16] Karl Van den Bergh : So I think part of it starts with. Being, I'll say to my team, what you see with me is what you get. In other words, I don't have any hidden agendas. I mean, you could say that and some people will like still discount it, but over time they get it.
[00:18:31] I don't have any hidden agendas. I think one way that's helpful is to be vulnerable. So I will say, Hey, I messed up here. You know, I'm not really good at this. So to be like fairly open about where I failed or where I'm not as good then helps people feel okay. I think I'm getting the real Karl because he's telling me, you [00:19:00] know, where he is messed up.
[00:19:02] And so I think that's a good kind of opening way to show people that, Hey, what you see with me is what you get. I don't really have. Again, a hidden agenda. I'll also, the other thing is if I believe that there's something that needs to be improved, I will tell you, like right away. I'll do it in a constructive way, but I'll tell you so you'll know where you stand, good or bad with me.
[00:19:28] And then, as I said, I'll say when I mess up as well. Interesting.
[00:19:32] Steffen Horst: Now, few forces are reshaping marketing as rapidly or as radically as ai. What once felt like a buzzword? Is now deeply embedded in how we work, how customers interact with brands, and how decisions get made from content creation and personalization to predictive analytics and media buying AI isn't just a tool, it's changing the rules of engagement.
[00:19:58] So [00:20:00] how are you currently leveraging AI with your marketing team, and where have you seen the most real value?
[00:20:07] Karl Van den Bergh : Yes. This is a big, big question. Obviously that's top of mind for everyone, and I say we're on the beginning. I feel like we're in the beginning of this journey, and yet things are changing so fast that there is a huge need to move fast because of the way that things are going.
[00:20:25] Let me start with the obvious perhaps, which is I believe that, you know, AI is gonna fundamentally. Reshape marketing as a function. Mm-hmm. And is gonna reshape how buyer is buy. Mm-hmm. And I think we've heard already, you know, people are aware that in a couple of years you'll have more AI agents as website visitors, as an example, then you are people.
[00:20:54] Right. So. They will be doing the work on behalf of people, and, but [00:21:00] you need to accommodate it for that. We're obviously seeing it today in terms of how people search. They're now using GPTs to do that. So as a company then you need to be thinking, well, what does the world of SEO look like in terms of how we show up in a Chachi BT result, or a Claude or whatever result versus, you know, a Google search.
[00:21:23] These are all changing and changing as to the way the buyers buy and the way that marketers need to think in terms of like, you know, for your list of, try to be a little bit pragmatic. 'cause I like to be pragmatic in terms of how we're thinking about it. So a number of things, a big part for me, and I think this will go true for most marketing organizations of.
[00:21:45] Any sort of scale, and I've been around for any lots of the time. Think the biggest challenge that you're gonna have is change management for the people, because we've grown up as marketers without AI or AI tools, or ai, as I said, as [00:22:00] kind of a buyer. And so the biggest challenge is gonna be education, is gonna be bringing people along.
[00:22:05] So starting to work it into your workflow, into like how you use or what you do every day. Then how you think you should be thinking AI first. And so to facilitate that, we've done a number of things. One is every single marketer in my team has every quarter an AI and BO. So we give them, we have management by objective, right?
[00:22:29] So it's essentially, it's a corely goal that is AI specific. And right now it is relatively unstructured. That could be, Hey, I'm learning a new tool, or I've got a project. The two basic things we're asking people to focus on is, one, drive efficiency. So what can you leverage AI to do more with less? And the second is drive conversion in the buyer's journey, what can you do to.
[00:22:59] [00:23:00] Make the buyer go faster or convert better, and then follow. Those are the two areas of focus. The second thing we've done is an AI innovators award that we introduced. So every quarter we give an award at for the top AI project, AI innovator, and now we're doing AI Fridays. Every second Friday of the month, we're cleared of meetings and they need to spend half dedicate a half day to AI because we're finding with everything else going on, sometimes some of these things don't make as much progress.
[00:23:31] So that's putting kind of a framework and putting real time and resources and focus on ai. 'cause this is to help with the change management. So that's kind of the high level in terms of the specific things I said we're looking to drive is efficiency. I think AI can cut out a lot of the inefficient processes and work that the team does every day so they could focus on the more creative and impactful things.
[00:23:58] And the second is [00:24:00] the conversion in the buyer's journey, which is with ai, you can get to this, you know, nirvana of true one-to-one marketing at scale. Which is you can really personalize down to the person, not the persona with AI at scale. And so those are the two axes we could talk about different tools or different, you know, projects, but at a high level.
[00:24:27] That's kind of the framework that we're using today.
[00:24:29] Steffen Horst: That's interesting. Love to talk, but, but coming a little bit towards the end of our. Interview today. Last question. On the topic of ai, how is AI already changing the way buyers engage with brands? You talked about a buyer's journey a second ago. What should marketers be doing to stay ahead?
[00:24:46] Karl Van den Bergh : Yeah, so I think the whole AI agent or agent AI wave is gonna be a big one because we're essentially gonna have pretty soon agents doing a lot of the work for us. And so you need to be thinking as a, a marketer, [00:25:00] if an agent or even a one of these GPTs, you're, you're asking a question, how do you surface, how does your company or its product surface?
[00:25:09] And it's different than traditional SEO. And so you need to start educating as an example. A lot of these GPT will use. Where are peer review sites, peer review sites becoming even more important 'cause they're deemed to be high quality sources of input on what's good or what's not good. Or an article from a highly reputed publication will be a good also source If you want your product or company to be featured in the answers of these gpt, you need to make sure your PR is focused on getting yourself.
[00:25:49] In your company in some good publications, and then you need to be present on. All of these pure review sites with obviously good ratings, as an example. And then I think with the [00:26:00] agent ai, you need to understand, well, what are they gonna look for? They're gonna, obviously, typically will look for, one example would be competitive analysis.
[00:26:07] So someone's looking, okay, tell me all the top products in this category and which is better than the others. So you're building content. You are only building content with that in mind, that you're gonna be compared to your competitors. So how do you obviously show up in a way that's gonna be advantageous?
[00:26:24] These are some of the examples of the way that we need to be thinking different, the world of ai.
[00:26:29] Steffen Horst: Yeah. I love the notion about, um, thinking more about the questions that your target audience is going to ask, while, you know Yes. The normal SEO that we've known for, I don't know, 20 plus years, was about optimizing content towards keywords.
[00:26:44] Yeah. Now it's really about. What are the questions that my target audience has? And you gotta think about the entire funnel. Yeah. I know the funnel is not linear. You know, there are many touch points, but from an easy explanation perspective, you gotta think about what are the questions on the awareness stage in a kind of consideration stage, [00:27:00] and what kind of question will they have when they are about to make a decision?
[00:27:04] Right? And that's how you have to approach it actually. Interesting. We had a conversation yesterday with a prospect and I asked them in the end, I said, so how did you find us? And they said, well, I put this information to chat GPT and then chat, GPT came back and said, symphonic Digital would fit perfect to your thing.
[00:27:22] And they mapped your output and it mapped our capabilities exactly to the questions that he had. And it's like, great. It shows. How this changes in these ways, and you talk a little bit about SEO throughout the conversation. It's no longer just the old SEO approach. You gotta almost go like two lane approach because might be still a number of people that like the old way or go into Google and then look for information there.
[00:27:47] But there's an increasing number of people that use the Chatgpt to Gemini, the Perplexities out there. To source information. If it is just doing the awareness or the kind of the information collecting [00:28:00] stages, there's there. Thank you so much for joining on the Performance of Podcast and sharing your thoughts on the modern CMO challenges.
[00:28:07] Now, if people want to find out more about you, if they find out more, want to find out more about Illumio, how can they get in touch?
[00:28:15] Karl Van den Bergh : Yeah, I think LinkedIn is probably always a good one. Maybe send it. I get a lot of inbounds, so maybe just put a note. Hey, heard you on the podcast. That will facilitate.
[00:28:24] Connection and then obviously lumia.com is where to go find about the product. It is a pretty awesome product. And then I do a fair few podcasts, so you can always search me on YouTube and they'll find my podcasts.
[00:28:37] Steffen Horst: Sounds good. Well, as always, we'll leave all the information in the show notes. Thanks everyone for listening.
[00:28:42] If you like the performance of our podcasts, please subscribe and leave us a review on iTunes or your favorite podcast application. If you want to find out more about Symphonic Digital, you can visit us@symphonicdigital.com or follow us on X at Symphonic hq. Thanks again and see you next time.[00:29:00]
[00:29:02] Outro Music: Performance delivered is sponsored by Symphonic Digital Discover, audience focused and data-driven digital marketing solutions for small and medium businesses@symphonicdigital.com.
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